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halkan ka dhageyso maqaal ku saabsan gumaadkii qabridahare iyo gubidii tuulada fooljeex?. Read
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Wadanka Danmark ma cadawga cusub ee diinta muslimkaa? 10/11/05, Wadanka DANMARK ma cadawga qarsoon ee diinta muslimkaa wadankan oo in mudo ah ba ku hayay weero kala duwan oo looga soo horjeedo diinta muslimka Eng:Ahmed Mukhtar Xiisadda xuduudka Eritrea iyo Ethiopia by:Ahmed_Nuur Sheekh Abdullahi |
By Alex Perry | September 6, 2007
TIME: Many people outside Africa know Ethiopia primarily from television reports of the famine in 1984 and 1985.
Meles: That was clearly part of our reality. We cannot run away from it. Ethiopia is in the midst of a profound
transformation. Most analysts agree that our growth has been exceptionally pro-poor. The political transformation
is still a work in progress.
There have been quite a few bumps on the road. But in the end, the movement has been inexorably in the right
direction towards permanently establishing democratic institutions, towards further consolidation of a
democratic culture and towards further stabilization. On the eve of the millennium, we are beginning to
see the impact of the start of the transformation of the country.
TIME: What happens in Ethiopia has an impact well beyond its borders. Why?
Meles: After Nigeria, we are the second biggest black African nation. We are the headquarters of the African Union.
We are the only African country that has never been colonized. This is perhaps the last surviving African civilization.
We have our own script. We have our own calendar. We represent the greatness of Africa's past. We also represent the
worst of Africa's present, in terms of poverty. It is the best and the worst of African reality.
TIME: As you say, democracy is a destination rather than a present reality.
Meles: While all democratic systems are works in progress, ours started rather late and therefore has a longer distance
to cover. But democratic transformation for us is not mimicking some facets of Western governance. The focus has been
on building institutions of democratic governance. And to do so all the way to the grass roots. Democracy cannot be a
plaything for the capital cities. It has to infiltrate every nook and cranny in the country, including the village.
TIME: There are questions about the validity of the 2005 elections which returned you to power.
Meles: Everyone, including the most ardent critics of the government, agrees that right up to election day the
democratic elections in Ethiopia were exemplary, by any standard. The issue arises as to whether the counting
of the vote was done in a fair and transparent fashion. Here, there are varied assessments. We argue that while
there may have been mistakes here and there, on the whole it was a credible and fair count. The opposition did not
agree. So we said: 'Let's check. Let's review the counting in the presence of foreign observers.' We did that.
After we did that, two groups of observers the African Union and the Carter Center said that while there had been
some mistakes, the outcome of the election was credible. The observers from the European Union did not criticize
counting per se, but they said the environment was such that the outcome of the election was not credible. Their
view was not shared by practically all European governments. Every one of them sent a congratulatory message to me.
TIME: Your government used what many consider excessive force to quell protests about the elections.
Meles: It's very obvious now that the opposition tried to change the outcome of the election by unconstitutional
means. We felt we had to clamp down. We detained them and we took them to court. In the process, many people died,
including policemen. Many of our friends feel that we overreacted. We feel we did not. There is room for criticism
nevertheless it does not change the fact that this process was a forward move towards democracy and not a reversal.
Recent developments have simply reinforced that. The leaders of the opposition have realized they made a mistake.
And they asked for a pardon, and the government has pardoned them all.
TIME: Your image as a role model for African leaders has been tarnished by the perception that your government
is not concerned with human rights.
Meles: As a person, I have never been discourteous or nasty to anybody. I may have stood my ground a bit too
directly, a bit too firmly, and I believe I have over a number of years learned to be a little less direct.
And I have certain misgivings about these human rights organizations and their activities. I see fundamental
structural flaws in the way they operate. The way it's done is Mr X. says he is a victim of human rights violations.
He reports that to an organization here or abroad. The organization has no means to verify the facts, but prints
the allegations as allegations. Those who read those allegations do not read them as allegations they read them as
facts. The other flaw is this attitude of holier than thou. Now, it is simply impossible for foreign advocates
of human rights to ensure there is respect for human rights on the basis that there is Big Brother out there
watching everyone. It has to come from inside. If people need a Big Brother, then by that very fact there is
no democracy.
TIME: There are specific allegations that there have been human rights abuses in the Ogaden region. How do you
answer these?
Meles: We are supposed to have burned villages. I can tell you, not a single village, and as far as I know not
a single hut has been burned. We have been accused of dislocating thousands of people from their villages and
keeping them in camps. Nobody has come up with a shred of evidence. Nobody. And I can tell you there are many
intelligence organizations in the Horn of Africa. This is a very volatile area, and understandably there are
much such organizations, and none of them have come up with any evidence. The reason is very simple. We know how
insurgencies succeed and how they fail. And we have experience of counter-insurgency, from when we were on
the receiving end. The most stupid mistake a counter-insurgency operation can make is alienating the population.
If you alienate the population, you're finished. We are not going to make that mistake. We may not have been
the most evangelical of human rights advocates in the world, but we are not stupid either. That is why we have
not made those blunders and we will never make those blunders.
TIME: And your view is that the Ogaden National Liberation Front is a threat?
Meles: Absolutely. It's not a theoretical threat. They killed more than 70 people just a few months ago in a
camp all of them civilians. It is a real threat. And it has to be curtailed.
TIME: Parts of the U.S. seem to take a different view of the ONLF. Your security forces detained four American
personnel because they were dealing with the ONLF in some way, or talking to them or using them to help them
operate in Somalia.
Meles: As far as we know, these personalities did not have official sanction to do that what they were doing.
They were violating their own code of conduct. That is why they were stopped. We have no proof that they were
in contact with the ONLF but there are indications that they might be moving in that direction. We stopped it
from happening before it happened. We consider the ONLF a terrorist organization. Now the U.S. is more
focused on international terrorism. The ONLF does not have an international dimension to its terrorist activities.
So therefore there is a slight divergence of perspective.
TIME: The U.S. sets great store by its good relations with Ethiopia. Why?
Meles: We are African and a critical part of Africa. But we are close to the Middle East. And the three major
religions, Christianity, Islam and Judaism came to Ethiopia much earlier than much of Europe. So the Middle Eastern
influence has historically been huge. And in view of the fact that much of the Middle East is currently in turmoil,
the Gulf in particular, with all sorts of terrorist activities, we are susceptible to that influence too.
But we are in the middle of Africa, and the challenges to democracy, poverty and development are central to our
survival. This is a country of almost 80 million now, diverse cultures and language. So in a way, Ethiopia is a
melting pot, a gateway between Africa and the Middle East.
TIME: How would you describe relations with the US?
Meles: Excellent.
TIME: Some people say you are America 's poodle.
Meles: Our objective is to safeguard Ethiopia's interests. Ethiopia's interests at the moment fully coincide with
America's security interests in the region, and therefore it's perfectly normal for us to work very closely with
the U.S. We have not denied the fact that we are working very closely with the U.S. We have every reason to do so.
We are not ashamed of it. If that makes us a poodle, if protecting one's national interest means being a poodle,
then so be it, that's ok. But that's not my definition of a poodle.
TIME: The U.S. warned against Ethiopia's invasion of Somalia but you went ahead. Was the invasion a success?
Meles: It's been a tremendous success. Before we intervened, about a year ago now, the Transitional Federal Government
(TFG) were on the verge of collapse and the Islamic Courts Union were on the verge of taking complete and full control
of Somalia. That is no longer on the cards. That is a tremendous change.
TIME: Why could you not accept the Islamic Courts Union taking charge in Somalia?
Meles: Because these groups had declared jihad on us. And the TFG also gave us the legal ground for
intervening by inviting us to come in. Now is Somalia stable yet? No, it is not, and it is not going to be
absolutely tranquil any time soon. But the level of violence has dramatically gone down.
TIME: What do you make of the assessment that the invasion radicalized Somali nationalism into a much more dangerous,
religion-inspired insurgency, and with Eritrea funding and supporting and there being links to those have already have a
track record in international terror, that there is a monster being created here?
Meles: If there is any monster now, it's been there for quite some time. What we tried to do was put it back in its cage.
These groups had ties with al-Qaeda long before we intervened. The terrorist outrages in Kenya and Tanzania [the U.S.
embassy bombings in 1998] were launched from Somalia. Somalia was a very well known key hideout for key leaders of
al-Qaeda in the Horn. When the Islamic Courts took over, they immediately put in a place a quasi-Taliban like regime.
Now that was also not started by our intervention. What we have done is isolate the hardcore of the Taliban we did not
create it and by doing that we believe we have radically weakened it. That does not mean there is no threat of terrorism
now. There are too many forces around who are interested in terrorism for that to be the case including Eritrea. But the
sort of mass upsurge in Talibanization that was occurring in Somalia has been curtailed.
TIME: We have information of a larger and more extensive American operation in Somalia than has previously been disclosed,
of around 60 American Marines on the ground, of helicopters operating from the U.S. carrier Eisenhower, of several days of
bombardment conducted jointly by Ethiopian and American planes. What can you tell me about that operation?
Meles: Since it is in the past now, I can be very frank. The American military involvement started after the Islamic Courts
were defeated, and they gathered around the wooded area in the southern part of Somalia on the border with Kenya. At
the stage, some US air assets were used for bombing operations on two occasions. U.S. air assets were used for
intelligence purposes throughout. And they did share quite a lot of information with us. There may have been a
few American soldiers on the ground, helping with intelligence. But other than these two air raids, there has not
been any other U.S. air raid in southern Somalia before or after that operation. There has been some military operation
in Puntland that was a seaborne operation, and it was done without any coordination with our forces. They have been
helpful with intelligence throughout the operation, but that is not new, we share information on security threats.
TIME: African leaders often prove reluctant to leave office, but you've been hinting that you may not stand again?
Meles: I have three more years to go.
TIME: And then you will step down?
Meles: And then the process will kick in.
TIME: Why would you stand aside?
Meles: I have been around for quite a long time. Time to start thinking about doing new things.
TIME: Won't you leave a bit of a vacuum?
Meles: No. Politics here is not personality based. It is ideologically driven and organization based. That's part of its
strength. In our case with the Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Democracy Front (E.P.R.D.F.) it's a movement with very
well articulated positions. And these things do not change because of personalities. I have been in the minority position
when issues of war and peace were at stake. And I have found myself implementing a majority position that I completely
and utterly disagree with.
TIME: Such as?
Meles: Such as the war with Eritrea. There were a number of instances where I found myself in a minority and implementing
decisions that I was uncomfortable with.
TIME: You have acquired the reputation as an abrasive leader and author of a confrontational foreign policy.
Do you disagree with that view?
Meles: I probably fail to beat about the bush. But I would suggest that when and where I have been direct,
I have tried to be respectful. In policy we have not been confrontational. We have always sought the peaceful
way out, even when we are on the receiving end of aggression. With Eritrea, it was very obvious that Eritrea
invaded our country. And we sought a peaceful way out. The Americans and the Rwandans came up with a peaceful
option. We accepted that. The Eritreans did not. At some stage I felt we could have gone a bit further in
terms of being accommodative. But we were never aggressive, whether in Somalia or Eritrea. Sometimes, when we
disagree, we say so with perhaps a little extra force in it. That might be misunderstood.
TIME: What keeps you awake at night?
Meles: It has always been fear — fear that this great nation, which was great 1,000 years ago but then embarked
on a downward spiral for 1,000 years, and reached its nadir when millions of people were starving and dying,
may be on the verge of total collapse. Now it's not a fear of collapse, I believe we are beyond that. It's the
fear that the light which is beginning to flicker, the light of a renewal, an Ethiopian renaissance, that this
light might be dimmed by some bloody mistake by someone, somewhere. This [renaissance] is still fragile, a few
shoots [which] may need time to be more robust. At the moment, it is fear born out of hope that this new millennium
will be as good as the first one and not as bad as the second one.
Source: Time/CNN
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